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Via Chicago just responded to the last post by declaring (on behalf of Tex Plush and himself) just how "white" Billy Joel's music is. Relative to the groups that get praised on here-- Andrew Bird (solo), Radiohead, New Pornographers, Bonnie "Prince" Billy-- that's just absolutely flat wrong.
Now look, I just finished my 2 and half year education at Berklee, and while I'm not dropping that as any sort of superiority thing, it was very illuminating because-- at least in ensembles-- I played predominantly black-written music there. And I many took classes that focused almost exclusively on the work of black people. And I learned how to write in a lot of "black" styles. I'm not claiming to know more about black music than any of you (certainly not more than Quinapalus), but I do know a heck of a lot more about it than I used to know.
And here's what I can tell you: Relative to most white musicians, Billy Joel ain't all that "white." Listen to Little Richard or Ray Charles play the piano. Now compare the piano styles of Billy Joel and, say, Stephen Drozd of Flaming Lips. Or Thom Yorke. Or Neil Young. Or the Sigur Ros guy. Or Panda Bear/Animal Collective. Or The National. Or Mikael Jorgenssen/Pat Sansone. So who sounds more like Ray Charles and Little Richard?
You can hear it in songs like Big Shot, Movin' Out, Scenes From An Italian Restaurant, Only The Good Die Young, etc. And then listen to "New York State of Mind," which is an homage to "Georgia On My Mind." Tell me how that song makes you feel white.
Look, I feel a little weird propping up Billy Joel, because I hardly listen to him anymore. But I do have those "Greatest Hits Vol. I & II" in my iTunes and I stand by the vast majority-- except for wussy stuff like "Just The Way You Are."
But using the "he's too white" argument against Billy Joel is just inaccurate. If anything, you could say too many of his best songs are simply derivative of black artists. (Musically at least. I'll concede that singing about Long Island all day is pretty white.) But the guy is simply too rhythmically attuned to get the "whitey" tag.
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12 comments:
I agree with Drischord totally. Billy Joel's music is totally steeped in blues, jazz and all kinds of blackness. You may not care for him (personally, I love him, though I fucking hate 'Goodnight Saigon'), but his musical sense is not nearly as white as you guys might believe.
I agree that Andrew Bird is MUCH 'whiter' than Billy Joel - you'll hardly find a single 'blue note' in his entire output. (And if you don't know what a 'blue note' is, you're not qualified to discuss 'whiteness' verses 'blackness' in music. Period. Sorry.)
James Taylor I can understand to a certain degree, Texplush, (although I do love some JT, selectively) but Joel gets a lot of shit that he doesn't deserve.
And while 'Just the Way You Are' is total sappy bullshit, listen to 'Lullabye (Goodnight My Angel)' - if that doesn't move you in its sincerity, beauty and unsappiness, then seriously: go fuck yourself. With a fucking shiv.
And 'Laura' fucking rocks.
xo
Dr. Kittybrains
I see I've touched a chord with you both, and I apologize (also for dragging Tex into this unknowingly. Uh, sorry there...) By no means did I mean to offend.
Here's the thing - for me, I just find Billy Joel to be exceptionally, well, dorky sounding. I've never given him too much thought - not about the way he uses blues and jazz or the way he uses blue notes (and come now Kittybrains, we can't discuss this if I don't excatly know the meaning? That's perilously close to "You can't have an opinion on music unless you make music" which is no good), not about the way his songs harken back to Ray Charles - none of that. For me, it's mopey balladry and it just plain doesn't do much for me. Now, you may find that odd in comparison to some of the bands praised around these parts, but I don't much go in for the more mopey indie rock scene and am more of a loud and epic kind of guy. And loud and epic Billy Joel ain't. So truthfully, I just don't care much about him. If that makes me a poor music fan, then so be it I guess.
As far as the whole authenticity discussion - it's never something I get particularly hung up on. I'll ponder more about it to see if I have any deeper thoughts, but to me the whole idea of Billy Joel sounding so "white" is more in his bland-ish inoffensiveness then anything else. There's no danger in Billy Joel - it's rock music that's fun for Grandma, and to me, that's just not that exciting. Perhaps the fact that I equate that inoffensiveness with whiteness reveals some deep seated racism or fundamental lack of understanding of traditionally black music forms in me. But I think it's more likely that I was just taking a cheap shot at a guy who, frankly, I just don't like as an artist.
Do I think Billy Joel is talented? Of course. I'm not deaf and I'm not an idiot. But to me he lacks the punch that makes him more interesting and compelling rather then just technically talented and proficient.
OK, a biref follow up after some thought.
I listened to "Lullabye". I'm glad you mentioned that one because it greatly helped get my thoughts together here.
So, I listen to Lullabye and what I hear is a really good melody and, really, that's about it. Now I don't want to poo-poo the importance of a good melody, and I want to recognize that there are not a lot of people out there who even have the ability to come up with a melody as good as that. But for me it's just not enough in a song normally. As I said above, it lacks that kick that makes it compelling to me beyond just being a very well crafted song.
And that brings me to a word that came to mind listening to this - "clean". Billy Joel's music is very clean. No rough edges. You get the sense that, in the world of Billy Joel music, there is a "correct" way to play these songs, and a correct way to make music. And I think more then anything else, that is where my feelings of "whiteness" come in to play. I would rather hear an artist get a little sloppy then play with clinical precision, which is what I often feel is the case with Billy Joel. Going back to the end of the year discussion - it's what made Alicia Keys's "No One" so interesting to me. That unlike any one of countless other ssimilar songs, Keys strained on the vocals and you could hear the strain in her voice. From a "technical" standpoint she was not singing as a vocal coach would have her sing. But it was that strain that made the song unique, that gave it LIFE beyond just the tune and words written on the sheet music.
Now, I will readily admit that for 99% of the bands out there, the reason they use more roughness is because they lack the ability to write a melody and tune as gracefully as Billy Joel, and for that, I take my hat off to the guy. But again, just personally, I need something more - some roughness to make those tunes live.
A couple quick responses--
1) Billy Joel's Whiteness: First of all, I think it's somewhat irrelevant-- as mentioned in passing, a lot of other music that we praise around here is similarly if not more white. What are you gonna do. It is is what it is. More importantly, fair points from Drischord and the Doctor but that's also somewhat irrelevant to Tex's comment. The fact is, Billy Joel is consumed and enjoyed almost exclusively by white people, the musical foundations of his music notwithstanding. I was recently struck by this at my first Bruce Springsteen concert at Giant's Stadium (fucking amazing show, btw). Springsteen's music is very rooted in classic R&B, soul and gospel (along with early rock, Phil Spector, Dylan, etc). And earlier incarnations of the E-Street band were half black. But damned if Clarence Clemons wasn't the only face of color I saw that entire night, in a crowd of 50,000 people. So while you can trace direct lines from Springsteen's music to black music, one could credibly say they never feel whiter than when listening to Springsteen.
2) I think this whole discussion is part of what I was hitting on, and it's also a theme I've come back to often, which is that you will always love things you loved as a kid. And I LOVED Billy Joel as a kid. I question whether I would ever enjoy these songs if I first heard them now (or even if I first heard them in high school!), but because I let it in at a time when the profound lameness of an artist was not an impediment to my fan-dom, I love it still. I don't know that I'd have any different a reaction than Via Chicago if I listened to a random Billy Joel song now.
Anyway, more thoughts but that's good for now.
wow! i love inspiring controversy with something i don't even remember saying!
few thoughts -
1. eric is spot on. sounds like i was talking about how i FELT when i listened to Billy Joel, not the music itself. For example, I've never felt more like a dirty hippie than i did at the Wilco show at Tanglewood (more on that later).
2. sometimes the 'whitest' sounding music comes from those who are appropriating black styles, i.e. Phish doing funk or John Mayer playing blues.
3. 1/4 of Billy Joels songs are some of the best ever written. another 1/2 of them are fine, forgettable. The last 1/4 are some of the worst abominations this earth has ever seen.
Well, I was once at a Coup show, and saw hardly any black faces besides the ones onstage, and their music is all about overthrowing the white power structure, so sometimes it can be slippery to contemplate what "feeling white" is even supposed to mean. "White" people didn't exist until there were enslaved "Black" people to define themselves against, and for centuries it was simply a term to denote who was in charge: to be White was to have a class of people underneath you that you could treat like animals.
At this point, black and white have been stewing together long enough in this country that--while there certainly continues to be an imbalance of political and economic power--at least in a cultural sense, white and black have mixed together pretty thoroughly in a lot of ways. (And certainly, in purely racialist terms, our bloodlines have mixed together a lot more than is often discussed in this country). This is all to say that I find the whole discussion of trying to dissect somebody's "whiteness" or "blackness"--be they Billy Joel or Barack Obama--to be incredibly boring and mostly meaningless. Ralph Ellison once said that "to be an American means to be somehow black"...and I think in an important sense he was right. Americans are not Europeans, precisely because we've been shaped and changed in important ways by the interaction of European and African traditions.
As to whether Billy Joel is totally lame, I think it's mostly a matter of taste. But I could say the same thing for Lionel Richie.
Well, I was once at a Coup show, and saw hardly any black faces besides the ones onstage, and their music is all about overthrowing the white power structure, so sometimes it can be slippery to contemplate what "feeling white" is even supposed to mean. "White" people didn't exist until there were enslaved "Black" people to define themselves against, and for centuries it was simply a term to denote who was in charge: to be White was to have a class of people underneath you that you could treat like animals.
At this point, black and white have been stewing together long enough in this country that--while there certainly continues to be an imbalance of political and economic power--at least in a cultural sense, white and black have mixed together pretty thoroughly in a lot of ways. (And certainly, in purely racialist terms, our bloodlines have mixed together a lot more than is often discussed in this country). This is all to say that I find the whole discussion of trying to dissect somebody's "whiteness" or "blackness"--be they Billy Joel or Barack Obama--to be incredibly boring and mostly meaningless. Ralph Ellison once said that "to be an American means to be somehow black"...and I think in an important sense he was right. Americans are not Europeans, precisely because we've been shaped and changed in important ways by the interaction of European and African traditions.
As to whether Billy Joel is totally lame, I think it's mostly a matter of taste. But I could say the same thing for Lionel Richie.
Ok, things are getting heavy now-- Q took it to the next level by dropping some critical race theory on us, all of which is valid but takes us all somewhat out of our element. That's an interesting observation about Clipse though. Truth be told, most of indie rock shows are distressingly un-diverse, but I think I hadn't ever been in such a large crowd that was so homogeneous. It was to the point that I was almost uncomfortable.
Whoa man, it was the Coup, not the Clipse: you don't want to go getting those confused. The Clipse want to sell you lots of cocaine so that they can buy bigger diamonds. The Coup want the workers of the world to unite and overthrow the bourgeoisie. Possibly those are equally dubious goals, but I was always able to at least get into The Coup's philosophy that I should read books and understand politics. Plus they have a song called BabyLet'sHaveABabyBeforeBushDoSomethin'Crazy
Ha-- my bad. I was thinking of the Coup all along, I just mistyped.
I guess they all look the same to you, huh eric????
Names of rap duos with 4-6 letters that start with C and have a P in them? Yes...It's my secret shame!
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